Flushing It Out | Trauma: Attachments - Jody Tompros and Thom Overton

Show Notes

In this episode, Samantha talks with Jody Tompros, retired social worker/therapist and owner of Mindfulness Painting, and her husband, Thom Overton, who is a couple's therapist.  Thom discusses his book, "Can COVID Save This Marriage? A Therapist's Pandemic Diary," how it came to be, and how it helps people feel seen and heard.  Thom and Jody discuss previous marriages, issues they see in couples that have come to them for guidance, and whether or not sex can be the sole reason a couple stays together.  So, listen in as Jody, Thom, Jeremy, and Samantha "Flush It Out!"

What is Flushing It Out ?

Flushing It Out with Samantha Spittle, the Introvert's Extrovert. The podcast where she talks to people so you don't have to...for now.

Jody Tompros 0:00
I am like, such, like, I could carry a banner for EMDR. You know, like, I could carry this torch that everybody has to get it? Because it is unpacked and released so much for me. Yeah. Yeah, well, you know, it just gives you so much more bandwidth and so much less anxiety and you didn't just like walk through it and go, Wow, I have energy for this kind of stuff when I never had it before. So, you know, it gives you a new life. I think talking about it, and I don't want to give any of my cop my former colleagues, or my husband's you know, earning potential bad name. retiring. Talking only does so much because so much is in your body. But it's

Samantha Spittle 0:56
part of the it's part of it, right? Like, it's part of the pie though, as you unpack life and trauma, it's all part of it's all there.

Jody Tompros 1:04
Just think of it as part of the veins, part of you know, it's in every cell. So the and the, but it's all in there and just talking about it, like does this much ink. I mean, yes, it sort of lets off the steam. You know, that's off, but it's just

Thom Overton 1:27
oh my god. So that's a tool for for a trauma. And, and I think before, you know, before I get to tools, I usually want to ask, well, what's still going to be for, you know, what, what's the point? I mean, don't just go out and do EMDR or, or in the old days primal scream or without having, without having a goal in mind or that having without needing to enhance something. So you know, why should I get rid of my trauma? You know, it becomes the question I'm saying. So why are you getting EMDR? Or why do you, you know, why do you use the I'm gonna do the interview for you. And

Samantha Spittle 2:21
I'm like, Oh, yes, just for me to be here. I'm living the dream right now. I mean, I feel like we'll eventually get into you guys introducing yourself and all that. But before we do that, I am all ears go.

Jody Tompros 2:34
Notice for our talk, and then he like makes it linear and clarifies it so that it might make sense to other people. I used to tell people that, you know, some people have experiences that gets kept in the family. Mine was on the front page of the Metro section

Thom Overton 2:54
that was growing up. I remember reading it only

Jody Tompros 2:57
because there was you know, there was illegal stuff going on. My father was an addict, you know that. And so there was always trauma and then you think, you know, you hold it together, you know, you do the best you can I had a mom who was like, huh, and so then over the years, you just keep making mistakes in relationships, and, and then you're like, why is this happening? So, just this past year, the reason I went back is I had two really good friends die. And it was, you know, two years of the pandemic. And then when I was in my late teens, I had an abortion and they were illegal. And pride at the same time in the fall. They were talking about, you know, making abortions illegal. Well, mine was and I had a traumatic experience. So I have all this grief and all this really crazy stuff. And I, as a therapist, I've been in therapy for a while, off and on in my life. And so I went back to my therapist, and I said, Why do I have to keep doing this? You know, I'm talk this shit to die. And so then that's what I mean. I've done EMDR before, but this is just really, really micro focused. And that was that that was what, that's why I needed the tool.

Thom Overton 4:30
So yeah, so it ends up being about Is this too much of a leap, but it ends up being about relationships and yeah, wanting to have better relationships or more complete relationships. And yes, I'm sort of no platforming off into talking about attachment, which is something we discussed before we see like on the fly on the way To the you know, the interview traumas is really it's related to, you know, to attachment. So you know, I want to connect or attach, you know, more more clearly and more in a more healthy way. And I think that's what you're really talking about. It's not just

Jody Tompros 5:24
one example, when we first met, and we were real connected, I'd always start a fight afterwards, or, you know, like, find some you know, because I got so scared of the attachment

Thom Overton 5:42
you did not?

Samantha Spittle 5:44
Well, you know, it's funny, because in the context, as you said, Thank you so much, Tom, by the way, I think you and I might have a future as we think we might need to do a new podcast in your retirement years, maybe we'll jump into one. Thank you for leading it. So well. You've got you know, you talked about why should we work through our trauma, and it's to get to and clarify if I don't say this, right, you know, we're working through it to have healthier attachments and relationships with people. And, you know, whether you are dealing with your own your partner or your spouse's, there's this collective trauma going on right now. There's so much that affects marriage, you know, it can come from all different angles. And marriage comes down to attachment, right? Like, it's the relationship attachment style. And so I know you wrote your book, all about, you know, can COVID save this marriage. So I would love to dive into that. But before we do, I want you guys to introduce yourself so

Jody Tompros 6:45
well, Jodi, Tom proce. I am a social worker, and a intuitive artist. And I, in this trimester of my life, I am teacher of mindfulness painting, painting your feelings on the inside, on paper.

Thom Overton 7:07
And, you know, I'm Tom over 10 loyal husband and, and best student of mindfulness, painting I've got going on, I could show you around this, my office is now filled with all sorts of things. And actually the cover of my book, it's, it's funny, you should mention my book, but I accidentally wrote a book called Kim COVID, save this marriage of therapists pandemic diary, which started out just being you know, like a weekly, little, you know, stick with the kids, you know, we'll get through this together and thought, you know, six months later, you know, the back to seeing people in the office. And so now, you know, going into third year of this, it turns out there, my initial projections were way off. And so I ended up writing this thing weekly, for a year and a half. And at that point, I realized that enough material that I mean, I'd really, you know, touched on an awful lot of the topics that, you know, the people brought me that, that if you put them all together, you know, about how to survive, you know, complicated times, or traumatic times or stressful times, thinking together without killing each other. Or worse. And what was the question again, the question was about

Samantha Spittle 8:44
love, I love it. Who are? Who are you?

Thom Overton 8:50
Who are I? Well, I'm actually a creative wannabe, you know, I always wanted to be an artist or writer, musician in a rock and roll band. And what I ended up doing for work because it sort of it fit my personality. And there was actually a career path that was that was open for it was I became a therapist, and focused largely on couples because I had managed to screw up so many relationships on my own, and I realized you know, that there's really that there's no manual, your parents won't tell you how to get along because they probably aren't. And one way or the other. And so it became my sort of, you know, felling as tilting at windmills. I'll never have a good relationship, you know, but, um, but I'm going to study though, you know, figure out something. So that's kind of how I got to, to where I am with with that part of my life and you know, still done, are even acting. You know, I've just done a lot of the more creative stuff too. So it's it's, it's worked out?

Samantha Spittle 10:11
Well, I think that you know, the two of Of course, I know Jody. And so Jodi and I met weekly for probably coming up on a year and a half. And so And of course, a VIP and we've done the mindfulness paintings as well.

Jody Tompros 10:26
And Jeremy, yeah, oh, yeah, Jeremy, Jeremy sauna choice.

Samantha Spittle 10:31
And when we talk about it, I always look over here because his desk is to my right. And then above it on the wall is one of the paintings that I did, in one of the classes we did with Jodi. And it's funny, because as we talk, you know, we're talking about all this stuff, trauma and attachments and relationships. When I did this painting, it was like six different colors all in a line. And I sat there looking, and I'm listening to Jodi talk through something with talk through with another person in the class, and how does it feel done, and I just kept looking at it, I'm like, I feel done. And I liked all the colors were separate. And I just felt the need to take my brush and just go across all the colors, and integrate them was that something we've talked so much about is, you know, this whole idea of integration? Yeah. And so every time I look at that painting, I'm like, Oh, that was such a cool experience, because I wanted it separate. But something was pulling me towards just putting all the colors together,

Thom Overton 11:35
it was reminds me of a joke. A wedding is the act of two people becoming one marriages is about deciding which one. So the, you know, blinding, blinding, is a good thing. And yeah, being able to, you know, to tell the difference between, you know, between you and me is another you know, and so there's that they, I mean, that's, you know, like the creative tension here is between, you know, like being our own unique person. And also being able to, you know, let down, you know, enough of the barriers and boundaries to, you know, to have that that sort of, you know, religious experience that you can get out of joining with somebody you know, without the danger of getting lost, which is, you know, that's another sort of an attachment, for sure issue, as you attach the point that you're, you know, completely, ya know, melted, then, you know, then, then how do you go walk around the world?

Samantha Spittle 12:52
Definitely, I love Tom with your, and you and Jody, you know, because of knowing Jodi so well over getting to know her so well, I should say, and grateful for that friendship, the the mix of creativity, and I don't know if like science education, what's the I can't think of the right word, but the training, you know, the the training of therapy that you both have, I think, for me, that just is so exciting, you know, for me to pick your brains, because you've got kind of come at it at both sides, you know, that intuition side, Jodi, and I talk a lot about, you know, following our intuition, and then also all these tools that you get from therapy and things like that. And so, as you said earlier, Tom, you accidentally wrote a book COVID. And a lot of I know, a lot of your therapy clients are couples, right? And so there's issues that come up. So I would love to talk about that insight that you've gained from that. But with marriage and your insight, one thing that we experienced that Jeremy and I guess I'm so glad he's here today, so he can confirm, deny or add to this. We, you know, the last two years, we've been walking some tough roads. But out of those tough roads have come some really good things. And you know, it's included unpacking a lot of trauma, you know, he's unpacked a lot of his own trauma, there's been trauma that, you know, hurt and brokenness that's been between us, and then a ton of healing also, and that it's, we're at a point where, you know, I would never have chosen the path that we have been on, you know, it's things I never would want to happen to either of us. But at the same time, we are also at a point where, if you asked me, Would we want our marriage, the marriage we have now or would we want the marriage we had three years ago, I would never want to go back to three years ago. And so I'm in this weird place, and of course, kind of having this public platform if you will, you know, figuring out how much to share what to share. And same with Jeremy so we're kind of at that place where We're figuring out what to share and what not. But the bottom line for me and it kind of goes back to me starting the podcast two and a half years ago is wanting to, you know, talk about stuff that people don't normally talk about. We talked about growth, healing, combating shame, but I guess what I'm really doing is wanting people to offer hope, because so many marriages go through tough times. And people don't talk about it. And then it's hard also for me, personally, or for us, because it's like, oh, my gosh, we have experienced such goodness. But to talk about some of that really good stuff. It came from some sad stuff. And it just leads in this weird place where, oh, I just want to share the good stuff and how wonderful our marriage is, and how wonderful, but there's some real hard stuff

Thom Overton 15:50
you don't want to end up having or succumbing to what I call Facebook syndrome. Oh, for sure. Your life is perfect. And nobody's gonna believe it.

Samantha Spittle 16:00
Yeah, of course. So now that we have an expert on our hands, an author or

Thom Overton 16:07
somebody else.

Samantha Spittle 16:11
I'm here today. Well, you wrote a book, Tom, now that you've written a book like that, you are official, like it's official. But you know, I kind of lay said, this is all kind of all over the place. But it's like, I have all these thoughts in my head that it's like, how do we talk about marriage? How do we talk? How do we encourage that? Yeah.

Thom Overton 16:33
How do we do that? Yes, yeah. I think that a lot in life, and dealing with trauma and dealing with with other human beings who, you know, who have, you know, their own version of trauma, that the most important thing is to be kind? And yeah, that's I think, you know, I go into this in the book a little bit. But it's easy to say, Oh, just be kind. And everything will work out if there's so many things that sort of, you know, make it difficult to be kind. And I was thinking about this last night, I have a client who is working with through seven are really hard time not, you know, self flagellating, and then it's just not very useful. I mean, it sort of keeps you in that sort of trauma mindset. And so a lot of what I do is help people find ways to be kinder to each other and to themselves,

Samantha Spittle 17:43
we could dive right into that. Because, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking, of course of just our own journey, and whatnot. And there were experiences in my life, that I almost felt like, prepared me to walk through a hard season. And I wouldn't have thought of using these words until you did. But I think they, they softened my heart to kindness, because I had walked through so many. I'd seen others walk through experiences, you know, and I had been, you know, in their life in some way. And so I was able to see different perspectives, I guess, you could say, of different life experience. And I almost feel like it primed my heart almost to be kind when, you know, we had opportunities to not be kind, you know, that I almost feel like I've credited that to, you know, the supernatural, like, I'm so I'm grateful for that. But

Thom Overton 18:35
I know, there seems to be so much unkindness, you know, everywhere. And, I mean, you know, one thing that that used to, you know, torture me was that even I was a young, naive kid or just sort of expected that everybody would, would treat me well. And, and, of course, that, you know, that didn't, didn't happen. I mean, you know, I bet a lot of different people in my life who treated me unkindly, because let me know, let's face I'm kind of a weird, any, any guy who becomes a therapist is probably a weirdo at some level and

Samantha Spittle 19:19
thought about it. So we're all four peas in a pod.

Thom Overton 19:23
Yeah, exactly. Which is nice. You know, so I feel safer. You know, I can open up some but but but I think it's, it's, I mean, it has a couple of different effects, one of which was like got to be really hard on myself. You know, and and then it'd be hard on my partners and even sometimes, my, my friends because it's you know, they say if you're and I don't know that this is true, so don't quote me on it. But so many people say you know, if you if you're abused as a kid, you'll abuse in the same way as an adult. out. And, you know, I'm not sure that that's entirely provable. I mean, I do want to think that people can, can break the cycle of their, you know, family trauma, but But I do think that, that the temptation is going to be there to get revenge, you know, he may not even think of it that way, but But I look at couples who I mean, they're the sort of the smallest unit of connection, you know, that I can think of, and, and you wonder why, you know, we don't get along why countries don't get along way I look at look at a couple. And you see all that, you know, the, the, the the abuse or whatever that, you know, that that you got as a, as a kid, or even as an adult. And, like, you know, the temptation is just to, you know, dump it on, you know, on your, on your partner, and then at the same time, it's developing, you know, like, like you said, the, the ability to be more compassionate than at some point in life. You know, I'm hoping soon, I get to the place where I'm more compassionate than hell and vengeful, but No, I'm joking about that. But there's a point where, with a lot of, you know, a lot of practice and a lot of meditation and a lot of, you know, sitting with

the, the pain that, you know,

feel like a kind of place where I can feel more compassion, both for myself and for other people and not want to avenge myself on somebody who cuts me off in traffic, although that that may be the hardest one.

Jeremy Spittle 21:46
Yeah, that was difficult,

Jody Tompros 21:48
as you're talking, and sort of kindness and compassion, you know, sounds like, you know, that they're easy words to use. But you have to really get into the depths of yourself, you have to go so deep, you know, people, sure people are, are born, I believe everyone is born good. And everyone is born with an open heart. And it just takes the experience to mold it, how it's going to go and some is worse than others. But to be able to sit and really see somebody and really hear somebody take skill and Allah in a time to really

Thom Overton 22:36
an intention. I mean, so that was the intention to do it.

Jody Tompros 22:41
And I remember when we may have just been married, or it was maybe even before, but we came out to Reston to have dinner with some friends at slam, I got really annoyed with you about something and you didn't react, you're just like, you're like, Oh, okay. And I said to you later, what? How could you like Be so kind or, you know, caring about that? You just have I knew you were scared. And that was exactly right. You know, so it's like, what? So the other piece of it is, when people act like a jerk. It's because they're scared. Yeah. And if they're angry, they didn't get to express, you know, life is hard, and you don't get to express it.

Thom Overton 23:29
But what usually comes up first, is that, alright, at least, it always did for me, you know, if somebody was giving me feedback, I didn't want I wouldn't see the person I would just see, you know, what, you know, there's the sort of lens I'm seeing it through a filter I'm seeing it through, it's like, oh, this is my whole experience my my, you know, trauma with somebody else who, you know, gave me negative feedback and wasn't, you know, loving about it, but really wanted to hurt me. And, you know, so I'm not seeing, you know, what's behind that of it. It took me you know, a lot of years in jail relationships to, to ever I mean, I mean, not always, but even ever be able to say, Oh, wow. I mean, you're doing this because you're, you're scared. Okay, I get that. I get that. And so, you know, kindness is it's an easy thing to, to advocate. Yeah, it's not, you know, adjust, you know, go to the therapist, and the therapist says, Be kind, then you go home and you just, you're kind for the rest of your life. It doesn't happen that way. You have to deal with the stuff that comes up that that, you know, that gets in the way first and monad to me, you can't even do it in the in the in the moment because if I'm triggered, and we're talking about traumas, we're talking about trauma About triggers and things that send you off into, you know, amygdala hijack, and you're probably familiar with that term where you just get so flooded with emotion that you can think straight. And, you know, so I had to spend a lot of time in therapy or are on my own, just, you know, waiting until the, you know, the filter went away, and I could see more clearly what was there. And that's the the essence of it is if you if you can see, and you can trust that you're seeing what's true, and what's real, that then you're in a position to develop the kindness and compassion. As long as you know, the, you know, the truth is hidden by all these different layers of mess. You know, does that make sense?

Jeremy Spittle 25:53
Yeah, yeah.

Jody Tompros 25:56
Well, you know, Phyllis would say, you have to use your observing brain, you have to use the observing part of your brain to be able to take a step back and look, when you're in the amygdala, which is the fearful, you know,

Thom Overton 26:13
the emotional lizard, the

Samantha Spittle 26:16
lizard brain. I would love it, Tom, Jodi, the both of you together either way. I would love to have you guys, one to affirm what you said, love what you said about the filter, that on a personal level, on a personal note, just I think that I resonated a lot with that, because that's almost, you know, I said earlier how, okay, we've walked this season, but I don't have the tools to be able to share it with people, you know, of how, you know, hey, let me give you this marriage advice, you know, because it's just so personal and intimate, but knowing that there's overarching themes that therapists and healers can share. So back to that, you know, you were sharing and I thought, oh, my gosh, you know, Jeremy and I mean, me too. It's just, of course, easier for me to point out other people's stuff.

Jeremy Spittle 27:06
Now, I am here, yeah.

Samantha Spittle 27:11
You know, you know, didn't this is because we've talked about this, you know, before, but like having a filter. And once you worked on that filter, I feel like that helped our connection, so much more. Sure. And so. So that totally made sense for us. So I almost want to back back up a little to kind of frame this with couples, because, you know, I said, Okay, we faced some really hard stuff. And it, it helped our marriage, because it was that, you know, we walked through stuff where it was either we could just end it, or we could get stronger from it. And I think with COVID, you know, I just recently heard the comment. Oh, so and so's divorcing? Why? Oh, you know, COVID, you know, and that's just a common thing. And so when Jodi told me the name of your book, and COVID, save this marriage, you know, it resonated with me, because I've said, you know, I never, it's very hard to use this terminology, you know, that COVID was a blessing to us, because it's been so horrible and devastating.

Jody Tompros 28:10
But there's a silver lining, but yeah, it

Samantha Spittle 28:13
created for us, personally, a bubble to just totally lean into each other, and just just really be solid and give the time and space to do the work. And so, when we're talking about marriage, it's funny when you talk about kindness, and all of this stuff, people get married, because they're so in love, they want to be together, they love this person, you know, so much they want to build,

Thom Overton 28:39
like, the conscious reason.

Samantha Spittle 28:41
Yeah. And that's exactly the conscious reason. And so, but then, as you said, you know, of course, countries can't get together because couples can't even get together. You have these couples who are just, we're and I say we because I'm saying, you know, everyone goes through it. You know, what a marriage advice we got from our pastor, like, way back when we got married, he said, we're on the same team, just to periodically remind yourselves, we're on the same team. And we forget that so much. And so there's people you know, so I'm imagining, okay, you've got people listening, they want a stronger, healthier marriage, you know, but how do you get there when there's so much raging? And so I would love to kind of have you guys almost give that context because everyone starts in love. Everyone wants to stay in this blissfully love marriage, but yet there's brokenness all around us, you know, and we all know personally the struggles so

Thom Overton 29:38
well. For me, I mean, I, I wrote this book, as I wrote the book, put it that way, I was calling a lot on my own experience and you know, and trying to keep from oversharing because my wife but you know, not necessarily want Me too, to share everything about us, you know, with the public, but but I think that that was, you know, part of what I wanted to do was to have it be not just, you know, the, you know, the thoughts and the tools and all that sort of thing, but to get an idea of, you know, how somebody who kind of came into relationships, broken, screwed up maths, could find a way, you know, with, you know, with with other people, you know, leaving some of them disposed by the side of the road, but we could, you know, get to the point where I could work with somebody to, you know, to actually have the relationship work well, you know, like, get getting through the, you know, the brokenness. I mean, I don't think there's any really good advice,

Samantha Spittle 30:57
but not advice. But for you. You actually answered the question that I was trying to ask, and I may not have asked it is this idea of two broken people, right, to people with it with, you know, their own issues. And I think that's what I've seen. That's, I think, what we've walked through, and want to get the advice of that, you know, experts in the room, or on the screen, but I think for what I've seen through my own marriage, and of course, we're not done yet. We have lots of roads ahead of us, you know, but it's, you know, kind of recognizing our own brokenness working on our own healing, and coming together. And so often, we want to fix someone else, we want to fix this one problem, or this one issue. And the more work we've done, it's like, oh, my gosh, this just comes, this is me, it's about me, you know, and you hear, excuse me, you hear things like, Oh, the way people treat you says more about them than it does about you. Well, it's hard to you might say it or know it, but it feels very personal at the time. And then the more healing work you do, it's like, this isn't about me, this is not about me. And so how, how can couples kind of work through their own stuff, as you said, you know, you came into this relationship broken, and Pete, you know, had these pieces and healings that you needed, but to grow together? How do you get to that, or how

Thom Overton 32:25
and then decided to have a, you know, a child who turned out to have autism. And we talked about them. And I think a lot about couples who have kids, and that didn't break here, nothing, nothing, we'll hear thoughts about

Jody Tompros 32:42
my first thought about, I mean, we wanted this relationship to work, we both come into it with, you know, failed marriages. And so if it wasn't going to work, I was going to be pissed. And I said to him, if, if this marriage doesn't work out, I'm going to burn down the house that we live in, and go live in a homeless shelter, because I am not prepared for it not to work.

Thom Overton 33:15
Now, there was some more graphic things too, involving a knife and chopping block

Samantha Spittle 33:19
Jodee a whole new set,

Thom Overton 33:23
very clear. And which is fine, because it's a serious Oh, you know, the first one of the first things we did together was go out to see in the movie. Fatal Attraction. Oh, that was the second movie we saw the first one was The Aristocats come back out. Like a Disney movie. And then then she took me to see Fatal Attraction I took you. It took me I doubled over in pain was made me nervous. So

Jody Tompros 33:59
my point was, is a couple both people have to really believe that with the right counsel, they can heal whatever it is, if people come in, like I used to ask people on a scale from zero to 1010 being you're never going to leave the marriage. It's great. You know, Buddha, where are you in along the continuum of thinking you can work this out? Are you in the door out the door kind of thing? And if people would say they were seven or eight, I knew I had something to work with. If it was a six or below, you know, it was iffy. And if the other person if one of the two people were in another relationship, and they were still in it, they didn't want it. Yeah. So first, people really have to want it be in a relationship?

Thom Overton 35:00
Yeah, well, and to do that, I mean, don't want to be in a relationship, you have to, I think, have come to some sort of realization of what that's going to be. Because, you know, I, I wanted to be in relationships a lot when I was in my 20s. And I was in relationships for, you know, for a night or a week or two or a month, or, or a year, and never thought much beyond that, in my first marriage was one of those that was, you know, what I see a lot in couples, which is, we're gonna get married, and nothing really has to change, it'll just go along smoothly. That was my whole first marriage in a nutshell. And when things didn't start, or started not going smoothly, I was like, Screw this, I, you know, I'm, I'm out of here, this marriage is supposed to be easy peasy. And so that was, you know, the first marriage. And the second marriage was, you know, was somebody who took it upon herself to, you know, to make a better man. And that didn't work, you know. And so now, you know, with with Jodi, and I don't want to advocate for starting marriages, but sometimes it's, it's helpful, because you're gonna, if you stay married to one person, for 50 years, you're gonna go through all three of those. Yeah, marriages, that the one that that's totally naive, you know, the one where you're trying to fix the other person. Yeah. And the one where you finally you know, get beaten down enough by life to realize that there's nothing that needs to be fixed. You just need to, you know, work together and grieve and be open.

Jody Tompros 36:48
There is a book, the good marriage, I think. And it there was a woman who interviewed 50 couples. Yeah, and it all broke down into like, five different categories. And there was the couple that were sort of the, I sort of see us as you know, like, we take turns, you know, we'd like, or we're a team, and then there's, you know, the rescue. I mean, but everybody wants to be rescued, but it's sort of like the someone, somebody in the marriage is going to be the one to take care of, you know, more of the old fashioned traditional kind. No, then there's a couple that just stays together because the sex is so good. And that's what they say, and they fight all the time. But they stayed there for the sex. And I can't remember the other two,

Thom Overton 37:40
I wouldn't have believed that particular one. But but I've had that a couple in my office, if you hate each other, you know, why do you stick out the sex is great. Okay, I mean,

Jody Tompros 37:51
you know, and you can't, I mean, people are together for reasons that they're together. So. So they have a nugget, they have something, they have something that hooks them in, it's probably it's their attachment style. You know, it's, you know, and, I mean, it's sort of it doesn't all boil down to attachment style, but it works. And we can't second guess why it's working. If they feel like it's working well.

Thom Overton 38:21
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I like to tell people that you can have any kind of relationship that you want, and I will support it as long as you're both on the same page with it, you both want that kind of marriage. So I've worked with couples who you know, wanted to to live apart, and then you know, have a long distance marriage, I've worked with polyamorous couples and, you know, it's like they if they're both on the same page with it, then, you know, I mean, who am I to judge I'm gonna go work with with all kinds of different pairings and if you don't, well, if you never change he was the other big thing, you know, that that I've been thinking a lot about, lately, with, with certain couples working with, if you never change, then you know, you can, you can cruise. But the thing is, you know, we change all the time. And, you know, and if I'm not, you know, keeping track of Jodi's latest therapy, because I mean, she's like she said, you know, you've you've talked about this stuff, a million times with a million leads with a half dozen therapists, and here you are back processing. And again, if I don't keep track of, of who you are, as you're processing that processing at this particular time, then you know, I'm missing out on some real gold here because, you know, every time you go through a thing and Learn from it. I think you my light shines brighter. Yeah, there you go. And I don't want to miss out on that light, because you know, I'm half blind, as you can tell. So

Jody Tompros 40:15
I had a friend who she got married really young, and her husband was in the service. And so when he was out on deployment, she would write to him every night. And she told me about the whole day. And she told him about the kids. Because if she didn't, when he came home, and he was gone for six months, know anything about what she had been doing. I just thought that was brilliant. And to this day, they have a great marriage.

Thom Overton 40:44
Yeah. It's good to know, because I've seen the other thing happened to where they come back from deployment and end up in exactly that situation you're talking about. But no, it's weird enough being back from deployment and now yeah, my family is a mystery to me. I don't know who they are anymore.

Samantha Spittle 41:04
So much goodness, there. You got you said, Tom, you know, about the starter marriage and the, you know, all the stages of learning. And I, Esther Perell. I remember I saw a talk by her. And she talked about that everyone has two or three marriages. And sometimes they're with the same person and sometimes with different Yes,

Thom Overton 41:22
yeah. Yeah. That's probably why I stole that from them. Yeah. Pharrell,

Samantha Spittle 41:30
really. Nobody put your own spin on it. That's the way life works. But as you described, the marriages, I looked at Jeremy cuz I was like, I think that's us. You know,

Jeremy Spittle 41:40
we've written at least our second marriage, definitely. We're definitely,

Samantha Spittle 41:43
definitely in our second

Thom Overton 41:45
home. Okay, can I ask how long you've been?

Samantha Spittle 41:49
Next month, it'll be 14 years.

Thom Overton 41:51
1414 years, married 14 years together? Or

Samantha Spittle 41:55
14 years married? 15 together, but have known each other 22? Yeah. Okay. But and that's something that, for me what I've said, and the reason I think I am so passionate about teasing out all of this shame stuff, and this trauma stuff and whatnot, is we had I always described us as we had a very fine marriage. That's fine, three, three years ago, and I, I would take fine any day, because I saw all the brokenness in the world, and the trauma and the abuse and this and that, like out in the world of marriages. And so it was like, if we can just have a fine marriage, like, that is okay, might not be super high. But as long as we're not super low, I'm good with that. And then, but then life throws some serious curveballs, our way, you know, my way, our way. Things I didn't see coming happening. And things I like said never would have chosen. But now, there's such a deeper level of connection, and emotional intimacy. And when you were describing Jodi's therapy, and being there for it, you know, and wanting to be on board or like on the, on the journey with her to get those that light shining brighter, you know, that for me, it was like, Oh my gosh, you know, but my life it's like pre, I guess you could say pre our trauma, totally happy with fine because I'm very fearful of the bad, but walking through it, it's like now I would not give up the emotional intimacy and depth of our relationship where we're at now at least and need to continue to work out you know, forever but for fine you know, and respect totally in retrospect and that's why it's this fine line of you know, wanting to encourage people because I think you know, just not wanting to rock the boat, you know, afraid to kind of look under the layers and peel back and stuff and just you don't want to rock the boat so

Jeremy Spittle 43:59
fine was good enough at the time.

Thom Overton 44:02
And then a good enough that there's nothing wrong with a good enough marriage. I mean, there's been stuff written about that, that that I haven't stolen, because I'm always a little you know, if you've got the idea of a good enough marriage, mate, you don't have to have anything beyond that. necessarily, but you know, life does happen. And, and it's that that fear of taking that did you guys watch? This is asked man a chance.

Samantha Spittle 44:32
I saw the first two seasons.

Thom Overton 44:35
There was a scene last night that he would be loved resonated with and it goes back to one of the characters you know, Kate when she's a little girl and her mom's trying to get her to go into the pool. And it was just it was so you know, wrenching for me. I mean, not because I was afraid of pools but just because you know, I've been so afraid at different times of like moving moving forward, because I don't know what it would be, you know, mom saying, Oh, but But it's warm once you're in and she said, No Not gonna happen, right and so, and I felt that way now it's just not gonna happen, I'm not going to share this about myself, I'm not going to take that that risk. So you know, and you kind of dig down into that. And and I mean, it really takes in developing some self confidence to get to the place where you can say, okay, yeah, it's okay to take a risk, but but a lot of people who come into my office, they're gonna say, you know, I don't want to rock the boat, because it's because it's good, not because it's fine. It's, it's okay. And, you know, man, I'm not happy, but you know, said there was supposed to be happy in life. Yeah, that's good point. But But do you want to, you know, roll the dice and see, yeah, and that takes, like I said, a bit of self confidence. So that comes then back to your own individual work. And, you know, and that's a constant battle for me, and then doing therapist, you know, how much of it has to be individual, how much of it can be, you know, the dynamics of the other two people, as we sort of CO create, you know, that sort of, I think of relationships, I think, are I think of, I'm not this monolithic human being, but that's, you know, our rock and can't be affected by anything, you know, I think the ego is CO created. I mean, we, you know, we create ourselves through interactions with with other people. And, and it's important to recognize that and to recognize that the kinds of relationship structures that we've created, you know, like families, you know, create whole systems that, that are totally screwed up a lot of times, you know, Amen, brother. Yeah. So there's all that, and you know, and you maybe know about, you know, going back to, you know, where you were used to live, like, you know, I come from Norfolk and go back to Norfolk, and all of a sudden, my accent would start slipping back into,

you know, a little bit more southern start to sound like my Daddy, oh, my mama. Never quite that extreme. But it's, yeah, that's the, you know, the system calling. So

that's, you know, been one of the things like, how much is individual how much is, is the gospel and knowing, you know, what to recommend for people, because if, you know, somebody comes in, like, you know, I'm halfway out the door, because, you know, he's an asshole, or whatever, then maybe something's missing. I mean, not just in the, in the, in the marriage, but in the other two individuals, maybe need to go do that, or, I'm not gonna, I'm not going to change, she is the one that needs to change. Because she's, you know, batshit crazy, and says, like, Okay, well,

I think we need to

look at other stuff. Yeah.

Jeremy Spittle 48:31
When you were you were talking about the this is an example of the fear of getting into the unknown, or the fear of change is kind of the way it kind of manifested in my head. And it seems like if somebody is a couple is walking into your office, the fear of change has been overtaken by something else. So just

Jody Tompros 49:02
misery. Yeah, right. The pain, right? I can't take it anymore. So what do I need to do? You gotta

Jeremy Spittle 49:09
try something or even just filing for divorce. That's a huge change.

Thom Overton 49:14
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Jeremy Spittle 49:17
So the marriage that's just good enough, is maybe a way of people being too too afraid of change to take any steps to improve.

Jody Tompros 49:30
Also, you know, somebody says, It's good enough and it's fine. You don't want to scratch this. Like, you don't want to scratch something that doesn't edge. You know, and like, you don't know where to start. Fix it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm

Samantha Spittle 49:46
finding it's broke.

Jody Tompros 49:48
I don't know how I would be any happier. So then I might start with what do you what makes you happy? You know, what are the things that are really good? So is there any place where there's Any discomfort? You know, what irritates? What do you get irritated about? And you know, it's not a big deal, but you get irritated about it. Like, oh, okay, you know, because some people like, they'll come anyway, you know, they'll come because they know something's missing. And they just don't know what it is. Right? No. And it'll play out in different ways. No, he won't go socialize with me. Or we only have sex every couple of months, or those kinds of things

Thom Overton 50:31
are never. Or it's been years now. Yeah. Oh, boy. Do I love getting boats

Samantha Spittle 50:45
like, I had a question, but, um this whole this couple's life flashed before me. Oh, my gosh. Well, Jeremy, what about you, I'd love to have you kind of look back at your notes. Because we could go into you know, I love that touching on this idea of using, you know, times to lean into the hard things to do the work on our own. So what about you? Well,

Jeremy Spittle 51:15
something that you said, Tom, when we first started talking, it was about your one takeaway that you want everybody to to know, is to be kind. And you mentioned that, you know, it's, it's hard enough to be kind to each other. But but we need to be kind to ourselves, too. And I think that that's the one kindness that gets overlooked a little bit. It's it for me in particular. And I think for a lot of people, I think it's pretty universal, that being kind to ourselves is harder, in some cases than being kinder to other people.

Thom Overton 52:00
Why do you think that is? Well, I think it's actually a learning or maybe relearning a lot about this doing Jodi's mindfulness painting class, and

Samantha Spittle 52:20
God the people

Thom Overton 52:23
and millions of people, but also give a plug to Julia Cameron, because we're also doing this artists way group. And I'm, it's really making me stick with doing the whole book this time. And I think what I'm learning is that the, you know, the, the, the inner critic that we develop through the years is, is so strong. And it usually starts out, you know, one way or another and in childhood, and I'm not gonna go all, you know, Freud and or something, because you hated your mother, that you're such a jerk now. But generally, there's a lot of criticism involved in most people's upbringing, because, you know, parents are trying to teach you how to be a human being. And, you know, that's all necessary. But because that is one of my teachers once said, you know, the, the parents aura is so enormous compared to the little child. And, and so it, that thing was that parents do have such an intense impact on us. And, and I think any kid, no matter who they are, is going to pick up on a lot of, well meaning direction, that is going to feel like criticism, and it's going to be internalized. So, I mean, just personally, I walk around with an enormous inner critic that that's always, you know, pointing its finger and saying, Oh, well, this is not good enough. It's not bad enough, so and so does it better, that there's a really good one, you know, from my childhood or, or Yeah, you'll never be able to, you'll never be a baseball player because you don't eat drink, sleep. And like, you know, Lawrence does, you know, he's the, you know, the baseball get. And so he might as well not, you know, so it's that kind of thing that sticks. You know, I mean, you work and work and work and work and the voice will still come up and say okay, you know, thanks for your feedback. I'm still gonna go ahead and, you know, take a risk on doing this, this painting or writing this poem, or, or whatever. And I think that that's, at least my thought about why it's so hard to be kind to, you know, to oneself because that critic is always going to be yapping in, in your ear. And it's going to be hard to disbelieve it, because a lot of times it will coming up parental sounding voice, you know, you know, say, Yeah, you know, you're, my dad used to call me Goofus satellite, you know, that could be a loving thing. But you know, it was, didn't feel that way to me. And I was pretty clumsy, you know, as a kid, and I got laughed at a lot for that. So Goofus sort of stuck with me as a, as a thing of shame. And so when I screw something up, it's not like, okay, it was just a screw up, let's erase it or started another piece of paper or started another marriage, or whatever. It's like, now you're doomed. So I think that's, that's the reason it's so hard to be kind. And I mean, it's frustrating to have somebody, as a client come in and just, you know, be beating themselves up, because it's hard to see that that's not productive. But what are your

Jody Tompros 56:10
thoughts about it? I'm just thinking about Stuart, my guy who's like, painting teacher, and, and so you know, when you're painting and things come up. He's like, Oh, that looks ugly, you know. And Stuart will say that your inner critic is there. Because you want to change something. And your inner critic wants to hold you back and keep you small. And so it's really, I'm going to use a political term, but it's really about individuating. It's about separate, it's about growing. It's about wanting, growing yourself to Yeah, to become more than you are. So when the inner critic is giving you shit, then you just force yourself to do something new, or to do something different. So that, because once you break through, it's like, oh, wow, that's cool. It used to be that we would talk about self care, because usually the inner critic is there because Oh, my God, you're tired. And that's true. But really, it's about growth, and not wanting to stay small and that but the inner critic, part of you is afraid and wants you to stay small. Well, as

Samantha Spittle 57:34
we wrap up, I think that marriage today is an reminder that you have these two individuals, these two broken individuals, you know, we come into it with our own stuff, we have our own healing to do. And then of course, figuring out the healing together. So Tom, tell me where can people find your amazing book?

Thom Overton 57:57
Amazing book, it's on. It's on Amazon. Either get it, you know, the, the paperback or Kindle version, either way. And

Jody Tompros 58:11
in COVID, save this

Thom Overton 58:12
COVID save this marriage that should come up or, or just you know, my name, Thomas Overton, but yeah, can COVID save this marriage? If I look for it that way generally comes up. Yeah. So if you if you buy lever lever, that means other people hear about it from

Samantha Spittle 58:30
definitely well, that's, there's no shortage of clients. You know, as you said, when you got started with getting into therapy, you said, why I have this relationship stuff. So I need it. And I think that what I have seen over the last couple of years is COVID, expediting things with a lot of marriages that have come down. So thank you for the work. You both do. And of course, that Jodi and mindfulness painting.com Well, thank you both so much. So glad you were here. And I look forward to of course, more conversations and reading your book, Tom. Yeah.

Thom Overton 59:07
Okay. All right.